Episode 15

Join Peter Nardi as he sits down with Wayne Goodman and special guest Martin Pierce for an entertaining and insightful conversation from the world of magic.

In this episode, the trio discusses Alakazam's latest product launch, shares stories from life on the road, and explores what it takes to succeed as a professional magician. From performing and audience management to conventions, lectures, MC work, and the business side of magic, the conversation is packed with practical advice, industry insights, and plenty of laughs along the way.

Whether you're a seasoned performer, an aspiring magician, or simply fascinated by the art of magic, this episode offers a fascinating look behind the curtain from three experienced professionals who have lived and breathed the craft for decades.

Featuring: Peter Nardi, Wayne Goodman, and Martin Pierce

Topics Covered: Professional performance, product launches, conventions, MCing, audience engagement, business growth, and life in magic.

Find out more about the team behind this podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to the Alakazam Live Podcast with Peter Nardi. For the full video version of this episode, head over to YouTube and search Alakazam Magic Live. So grab a drink, sit back, and let's talk magic.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

Hi guys, and welcome to this week's live podcast here with Alexam. I'm joined uh again by the legendary Wayne Goodman with a special guest with him. We've got the amazing Martin Pierce. And uh Wayne is once again in a pub.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

What are you drinking now? Well, I'm just on Coke and this um and yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Terrible. Doesn't smell like Coke, Wayne, but I believe you. I believe you. Absolutely terrible.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

I only drink it till screaming and my head stops.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

He only drinks it till it's empty. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

So um, guys, good to have you with us this week. Um, it's been a busy old week at Alakazam this week. We had the launch last week. If you didn't join us, we launched the amazing charged up, which has been selling like hot cakes and for good reason as well. It's such a great little EDC to carry with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

I've not looked at the numbers, Pete, but that's got to be up there as one of the best-selling launches. They did sell a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

I am gonna let me, while you're on the phone, uh not on the phone, while we're on here, I'm gonna have a little chat.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Now, on the very, very um low possibility that you haven't checked that out, you should definitely go, if you haven't checked it out, you should definitely go and check out Charge It Up on the site. Um for me, uh it's one of it's definitely up there for me as one of Clay's best ever releases. It's such a good routine. I did two birthday parties on Saturday, an 80th and a 60th. And when I say 80th, they weren't all old, there was lots of younger people there as well. So it was a very mixed, all both groups were very, very mixed in ages, and every table got charged up done on the city.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

At a Kazan convention on Saturday, at a holy couple holy communities on a Sunday, and obviously it's quite an easy one to learn as well, being to entertain you. Yeah, I loved it. And you know what? I fit in like these trick patches amazing.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mine's um mine's sitting in here. Ready, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Mine's in my car to wallet, and it's something a bit different as well. When you see I'll come out like I'm the world pick and pocket champion, and all things like that, and I'll get quite buggy and excited about it. Or should we have a go? I'm gonna try and pick your pocket, and just things like that. You can just get people excited about something, you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Yeah, um, right, so bearing in mind it's been out for a week tonight, I think. It's already our seventh best seller of the year so far.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

And that's and that's not just Alakazan products, that is overall, every single product we sell, this is the seventh best selling product.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

I'm sure that will climb.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Oh, hang on, climbing.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Do you know what? I thought we might be higher than that, Peter. Units.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Right. No, this is um this has given me the report on uh money it's bought in rather than units sold. So let me have a let me have a look at units sold. Because I would have thought it was higher than that. But let me have a little look, see.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Um yeah, it's just an original routine as well, isn't it? You you don't you don't get to see something like that. Yeah, yeah. You're not challenging the audience to say, like, you know, find a card or doing this or doing that. You're literally performing a demonstration of pickpocketing or however you want to present it. So yeah, yeah, it it's it's very original and very good.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

It's actually uh number six.

unknown 4:34

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

Number six, number for a week. Yeah, that's after a week. Number one of units sold is one card in my pocket.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Wow. Well, it's gonna um I I reckon it will climb up. Uh I reckon it'll climb up as time goes by.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

It will do every day. It's still selling. But talking about live launches, for anyone watching this, um we have got one tonight. We've got one tonight for this. It's called Get Saucy. We'll be live on Facebook and YouTube at seven o'clock tonight, where we're gonna give you a live unboxing. We're gonna show you exactly what you're getting inside, and we're gonna talk about what you can do with it. Now, this is great. We've had them in our warehouse for probably six months, just waiting for the right time to release it, and that time is now. So join us tonight at seven o'clock. We will send out a push notification for those of you that haven't got our app, make sure you go on to either Google Play or Apple Store, or the App Store, should I say, and download the Alakazam app because that way you get notified on stuff. We do little live videos in the app as well, uh, exclusive to the app. You do get your hands on items before they're released as well, uh, sometimes. So um it's well worth having on your phone. Go and download it, and it costs you nothing.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Mark Bennett. This is Mark Bennett get killed. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Yeah, anything that Mark releases is is top-notch. He's a proven performer, so yeah, that's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

Yeah, um, and talking of Mark Bennett, obviously Mark Bennett was at the Alakazam convention. Last week we had a meeting at the convention to talk about um because we had heard there's gonna be changes to the building, this, that, and the other. So we didn't really understand what those changes were, so we went and had a proper meeting with them last week. Um, and the good news is for us, it looks like everything can stay pretty much the same as what it was last year with regards to the dealers where the dealers are, the chill-out area where the chill-out area is, um, the screens and everything else. So now we've got that sorted and we understand uh the situation, we are almost ready to put the tickets on sale. Now, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you this. There is a possibility, we haven't decided yet, that we're gonna open the the uh convention up to even more people. But there is a big but here. We can only fit 185 people into the screen for the show in the evening. So basically, we're gonna be sending out an email exclusively to everyone that attended this year. You're gonna have a week to book your tickets and secure your full convention ticket. Now, the full convention ticket will include the Friday night with Friday night event, so it will get you um early access so you can access and register Friday night, you get into the Friday night event, you get into all day Saturday, and you get into the show. Now, if we do release these other tickets when these sell out, they will have Saturday morning registration, so they won't be able to register on Friday evening, they won't get access to the Friday evening event or the chill out or anything else. Um, they will get the Saturday lectures, but they will not get the show, so there is a real point to booking your ticket early with this, and we had a lot of people saying we would have really loved to have been able to reserve our seats. Now we cannot do that for the whole cinema, but we are offering VIP tickets which will get you reserved seating in the second and third row. There's limited tickets for those, there's only 40, I believe. So there's a really good reason to get in early. So keep your eyes on the emails because you guys are gonna have a week's grace. Now, bearing in mind, this year we were sold out. So if everyone that came last year are coming again next year, that's all those tickets gone. Yeah, so it's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Everyone I spoke to absolutely loved it. I was there as well, I absolutely loved it. Meeting the people, the whole atmosphere, the vibe is the current word is the vibe was brilliant. You know, it was such a success. And I said to you, Pete, I said, you you know, you can ask actually top this, it was just amazing. It was just yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

I mean, we we've already booked our first artist. So he's already. Yeah, it was it there was just such a great fun atmosphere. Such a great fun atmosphere, and I think everyone um had a good time.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

It was just nice to meet people as well, because obviously I I I do a lot of lectures and things like that, and on you know, unlimited and things like that. It was just nice for them people to come up to me and think, you know, I can actually approach Martin and things like that. Because usually when they when they have a question with magic, they always ask Robin because they always think I'm I'm not gonna speak to them. Obviously, um Robin's more friendly. But uh, yeah, for whatever reason, uh always say, Oh, can you ask Martin how he does this or how he does that? Yeah, we always say, Well, why don't they message me? Uh and then it's actually nice to meet the people and they say, Oh, I've asked Robin, and they say, Oh, you're quite friendly after all, really. So yeah, it's just nice to see it. And uh, yeah, the Annika fam is amazing, as I say. Everyone was jamming, and everyone was you know, treating everyone so equal, no matter what they've done in the magic world, whether beginner, hobbyist, semi-pro, professional, everyone is treated the same in the Annika fam, and that's what makes it so amazing. And that really told of the convention, I think. Everyone had time for each other.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Yeah, it it was it was great, and it it was just so good to see so many people. It was their first convention, which was really nice, and just watching them get invoked.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

We had a lot of people say, I mean, lots of people, especially on the Sunday, there were people who was like like Fred O was in there and a few of the people, and they said they said, Oh, I've never been to a convention before, which surprised me. Um, you know, but yeah, no, it was it was lovely to have.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

I think it's just a stigma of the first convention. Like, am I sort of not worthy to meet these people, but they just seem to say don't do as much magic as them, they're they're not an equal to them, which is you know not the case. Not the case.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Oh, there's Mr. Craig, I like Craig. Hello mate.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, see, I had a chat with Craig and he brought brought his wife and his daughter along, and I even signed a hero, which was worth 25 quid a much. I signed it as well for 10 now. So uh that much. So I signed his box room because he uses it all the time, but it was great to meet Craig, and I could tell just beating Craig's enthusiasm for magic, it just came across. You can tell he got excited to talking about magic and things like that. And uh yeah, I'm pretty sure he'd be back for more. So uh yeah, great to meet him.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

No, it was it was great. Really, we all like the Alakha fam, me, Jenny, Harry, Andy, we all had such a great time there. And I heard from Jamie today that he's finished the documentary. Jamie's been working on a documentary about the convention, so it's gonna go up on YouTube in a couple of weeks. We might actually do a live watch party um when we do it. Yeah. So um I think we might do that probably next week. Um, we were thinking of doing it Tuesday because that would have marked exactly one month from the convention, but I'm out on Tuesday. So we might do it another evening during the week um where you'll be able to watch along with us, and then there'll be a chat box there on YouTube, and you can just uh ask us questions or let us know your thoughts and everything else.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Nice, yeah, that'd be good.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

Just tested it, just tested it, make sure. So uh we're we're joined by uh uh quite a few people here today, actually. The chats are just rolling in really fast. So big shout out to James Samuel. Uh hope you're well, James. Will Thomsett's here. Um Will said my first convention, absolutely loved it. Will was in the shop Saturday as well. Uh Ian Bailey's here. Hi, Ian. Uh Craig Barnes, obviously. Uh David Strover's here, Colin Jones is here.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Uh I saw that Gerard Gerard Poot is there from Belgium, from Holland. Yes. He was in the shop. So he commented earlier on. So uh, yes, nice to see you, Gerard. Um Will Thompson picked up uh Spongebob behind the ear, I believe, yesterday. So thank you very much for that, Will.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Oh, fantastic. Uh let me see what else happening here. Uh we got a few of our we got Wacky Wisdom Wizard 8499 joining us from Georgia, the USA. So remember, guys, tonight at 7 pm BST, we have got another live launch right here on YouTube and Facebook for Get Saucy. And I tell you who's excited about it, Mark Bennett and Craig Petty. In fact, here they are when I told them tonight is launch night. I mean the dance goes, they didn't stop dancing, but there's a little clip.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Kindly sent in by Nemi. Can we get them in the studio doing that dance? In those costumes.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

I I would love to. I would love to.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Um I wasn't expecting that. Loved it.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Um so and there's a few people that are commenting, get saucy is fantastic, and everything else. That is because Mark Bennett had this at Blackpool and the Alex Sam convention. So a few people have got this already. Um, but for those of you that haven't, join us tonight. We're gonna show you exactly what it is, exactly what you get in the box. We're gonna be jamming ideas for it as well. So join us, it will be a really good session, and these are in stock, ready to ship. So join us tonight, and you can uh you can be the first to pick them up. And I will say, if this sells as fast as get saucy, uh as fast as charged up, we will be sold out by tomorrow because we haven't got huge amounts of these. So go on, carry on, Wayne.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

I was gonna say, just to uh move along, um, I believe you had a question you'd like to ask everyone.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

Hmm. Hmm. So we thought this might make the uh the podcast a bit more interesting as well, and that is to pose a question to you all. So, how do we do this, Wayne? Do we give them a percentage thing? So, what we're thinking is the question is this I see a lot of comments, especially on YouTube, right? Where a video will go up, could be our video, could be someone else's video, and a magician will post under it, yeah, but I bet you can't do this, or I bet I can't see this, or I bet I can't shuffle the cards, or I bet I can't do this.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Can I in a second, should I bring up what we were talking about, the trick we were talking about last night and what my thoughts on that were?

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yeah. Um, so our question to you guys today is how examinable do you feel the trick that you're performing has to be? Now let's do it as a hundred percent, fifty percent, or zero, you don't care whether it's examinable or not. All right, so just um you can obviously type a bit more in your response, uh, but a hundred percent that means you're gonna go, you can examine everything, 50%, where you know that you know there's certain bits that can't, and everything else, or you don't care, you know, a trick's a trick, and it doesn't matter whether they can see it or not. So, right, over to you, Wayney G.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

So, so um there's a new trick coming out. I've got my one coming tomorrow, I'm very excited for it, uh, called The Void, and it seems to have divided magic quite a lot. Um, and on the video, Lloyd Barnes by Lloyd Barnes and Julio, I believe, Julio somebody, I can't remember his last name, but anyway, um, on the video, Lloyd Barnes um you don't know it's Lloyd, but he the camera zoomed right in close, and he opens up the case and he says, This was the switch. And it's basically a mystery box, but it's a clear, it's a keyring. And some magicians, a lot of magicians, lots of magicians, I will add very quickly, have said that looks amazing. Yeah, but they see the potential for it, it looks incredible, it looks amazing. You're on your keyring, and all you appear to do is open it, they take they can take out the card, and you've switched it for their signed card. But a few people have been posting on there going, yeah, the move looks a bit unnatural, it looks a bit dodgy, etc. And I was talking to some people the other night, and they said, Oh, the m the move doesn't look natural. And I said, Um, if you're got if you've got them focusing on the move, on the trailer, the camera is zoomed right in close on the clock. That's never going to be the situation when you're working. When you're working, the idea is you pick up the case and you go, Oh, inside here is I've got a prediction, you open it and you let them take it out. You're not gonna be doing a slow motion opening of the case with them zoomed right in close, looking at it. Here, quick, everyone, get as close as you can, check this out. So, my my belief is if if you're doing it that way where they can see the move that you're doing, then you're not doing it right. It's not supposed to be a moment, it's supposed to be a um, it's supposed to be part of a sequence of events. You just open up the case. You want them to remember it was in the case, the case was opened, I took the card, I took the card out, and the uh the card was now my sign card.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Yeah. So, you know, yeah, you're you're exactly right. I mean, I've been for anyone that's been following the making a magician thing with Emilio, um, I've been talking to Emilio about this recently, and I've been talking to him about the the power of performing, the power of going out there and performing. And I consider myself to be pretty good at structuring a routine, but I still know I will go out there if I've got a new routine that I'm doing, I'll go out there, and not everything, but some things you'll do it, and you'll go, it didn't hit as good as it should, or I thought it would, or this would, or that. And then you sit there and you analyse what you've done, and then you change a bit of it, and you go, Yeah, that was better, but there's still this awkward moment. And then you analyse it, you change it, and then you go back, and then you do it again. And I I think you know, it it's things like this. If you're doing something like you said, with the with the void, now we all know that whatever trick you're doing, uh At some point, unless it's a totally self-working trick, at some point, something needs to happen. So if that thing is blatant or you need them looking away or whatever it is, you build that into your presentation. And it's not a look over there moment, it's a simple question you're asking. You just misdirect them for a second while this thing happens. Now, when I do my multiple selection, there are, you know, there's a deck switch in it for an Omni deck, there's a car to wallet, there's a car to pocket. So there's, I think two or three times I've got a palm unload, there's a deck switch and everything else, and it's all done with misdirection. None of if people were still if I'd done that on video, you would sit there and go, but I I saw you palm the card, I saw you switch the deck, I saw you do this, I saw you do that, I saw you because there's no misdirection. The camera's on you and you're feeling your persona.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

No, sorry, Jim. It's your persona as well. You're not challenging the person because you're doing a routine and you're you're getting people to help you, you know, you're structuring it so like everyone's having their I'm doing this in the wrong way.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

I don't want to start that I put my cup down and it hit the button.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

He does that. Come on to shut down. Yeah, that does. It's all about your routine, you know. I say we go out to entertain, we're not challenging the person to say, Oh well, you know, I'm gonna find your card, I can do this, you can't do it. You're having you're having a bit of bandwidth and you're making the whole routine come. So obviously, you when you do your your performance or trick or whatever, there's gonna be one little bit of dirty work you have to do with it, like 99.9% of the time, you've got to do something to make it magical. And you just do it in the moment in your routine. On the offbeat as such, you know, you're asking someone a question, you're looking that way, uh you you're writing a book about misdirection, and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So it's just it it's not a blatant misdirection of like look over there for a minute, it just it's just having a bit of banter side while you do the moves that's necessary, things like that.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

There's something else here as well. When I uh back in I think it was 97 or 98, I did a TV show called Emma's for Magic, and it didn't get shot, it got shown at like four o'clock in the morning on something movie Sky channel about. Um yeah, it wasn't bad. Uh no, it was a really good show, though, it was a really good, really good experience. But when we were on the show, um I was in Trafalgar Square and I was doing SpongeBobs to a Chinese family, and we kept them there because they were so good, and I did the routine three times for them. And the the third time and the film, the guy filming it said to me, He goes, I don't understand it. He goes, They're reacting really well, but you could blately see what you were doing on the camera. And I said, Well, that's because you can't misdirect the camera. Yeah, you know, you can't misdirect the camera, you can so then we then we had to look at how I was standing, how I was moving, how I was interacting with the people to cover the move so it wouldn't be seen. So what we did was we filmed it a fourth time, but then the reaction shots were all taken from the first take when they were the best. Okay, and so they got the they got the moves in with the fourth take, but the the reaction shots were taken from the first shot.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Um and that's not work.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

That's not too dissimilar to to doing the stuff live because you know, sometimes there is a move that you've got to do, and you become quite aware that at a certain angle it isn't great, so you position yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

And I always like my shadows, I like my um shadow steel, it's great from certain angles. But if there's somebody on this side, I need to make sure that as I do the steel, I turn my body slightly to cover the steel from that from that angle, and it's just knowing your angles. And I talk about it in one of my books in Max's primer. Uh, lines of sight, lines of sight are so important when you're working to understand that different people at different angles might see sense. So you want to make sure that you're covered for all angles, and you're learning for experience as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

The more you do it, the more confident you get, and the more you're sort of you're doing it second nature, you literally like position yourself second nature. But yeah, Wayne showed you the void video this morning, and I've heard a kafuffle about it, and when I saw it, I thought that's no trouble at all. But as Wayne said, they're literally like concentrating on the box in someone's hand, and but nobody's gonna be staring at your hand looking at the box because you're you're gonna be saying, you know, just gesturing, having a bit of fun with people to say what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

But if you watch the full trailer for it, later on you see Julio on a beach doing it for people in like a beach setting uh in California or wherever he is, and it looks like California, and um, and obviously it's not zoomed in at that point, you're watching it from a distance, uh, and it literally just flies, and it really does. I I think I've got my own mystery box routine idea, my own move for it. Uh, but I'm very excited to get this because I think it's one of those things that it holds a lot of potential, yeah and and it makes sense. You know, I love the mystery box premise. The one thing I don't like about it is it's a big chunky box, and this eliminates that, it's a nice keying. But we're going off track there with that, but yeah, it's um yeah, I think it owes a lot of potential. I'm really very excited to play with it.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

It will fly past audiences. There's no way someone's gonna look at your hand and say that wasn't a natural move. Because for me, when I saw it, I I didn't notice it at all, and I thought it was a natural move.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

What's your thoughts on how examinable does something have to be?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Again, uh, it doesn't have to be at the end of the day, you're there to entertain, you're performing, and if you've done your performance and you've entertained people, again, as long as you don't challenge them and say, like, I'm doing this, can you see what I'm trying to do to you? I tend to get people on side, I perform something and say, Oh, what do you think? You give me a number, or I did this last week, I've got it right wrong four times out of five. People tend to be on your side of it. Don't make it a challenge, make it make it a bit of fun, yeah, and they will, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

What's the thing you said last night, Pete, about you know, if you go down the road of getting things examined?

SPEAKER_04 28:31

Yeah, I mean, this is this is something that um I heard from a very well-known magician many, many years ago, and he he did say, even if you can get props examined, never offer them out for examination.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Never.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

Because the problem is you now set a precedent that the moment you don't offer something out, they're gonna want to see it. Whereas if you if you don't offer stuff out for examination and someone turns around and says, Can I see that? If it's examinable, you can go, yeah, of course you can. But wait for them to preempt it. And you'll be surprised. I mean, there's um, thank you everyone that's sent in, but it there's a really big mixture here of a hundred percent, zero, seventy-five, fifty, everything like that. And I think that a lot of the hundred percent are probably doing stuff to family and their mates. And the the problem is when you're it not the problem, the thing is, when you're doing stuff to family and mates, they know who you are. There isn't that boundary there, and they they know you cannot do real magic. So it is gonna be that let me have a look at that. They see it more as, even though they are family and friends, and they do see it more as a challenge. Let me have a look at that, you know? Whereas when you're performing to to normal people, you don't tend to get that as much. And if you do and it it does happen occasionally, it does happen where people sort of go, Oh, can I see that? And you just either let them if they can, or you make a gag, or you move on, you do something, you know, but that's you learn you learn about that when you perform. Because it does, you know, it will happen. I'm not saying it will never happen, it will happen. But does uh for me, a trick doesn't have to be examinable to perform it. I mean, let's take for instance, let's take for instance.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, charged up isn't a point, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Yeah, charged up. Um we've put a few videos up, and once again, there's been magicians jumping on there going, oh, but I bet you can't turn that over. I I can quite honestly say, hand on heart, not once have I performed this and someone's gone, let me have a look at the other side of those cards. Not once.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Um can I just jump? Can I just jump in here? I was at a wedding uh just over just I think a week, two weeks ago, maybe, and when I got there, it was a lovely wedding, everyone was lovely, and there's a big group of guys there. I sent Peter a video and I said, Pete, I'm supposed to be working the tables right now, and well, you saw didn't you, Pete? They were all dancing, they it was mental, it was chaos, and it was these bunch of guys who just took over. They were, I think he was rugby team or something, and they were just out of their heads, they were very, very drunk, they were dancing on the tables, they were dancing outside, and I'm supposed to be going around doing magic, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna go and get myself a glass of tea. Um, uh and these guys were on me from the moment I started, and they were like, uh they wanted to see the cards and they wanted to do this, one of my playing cards, and um, and he took two cards and he was measuring them and stuff like that, and you let him get on with it. Um, I did charge it up to him, not one of them, when all of a sudden change went, Oh, well, let me check those other cards out. If you do it properly and you show the cards and you don't draw attention to the possibility that there could be something special about them, they are just cards. Yeah, you know, I bring them out and I say, Oh, you know, if you took my cards, well, let me explain. Like this one here is my coffee card, it's got no value to you at all, but to me, you know, it does because I drink a lot of coffee. In fact, my blood type is flat white. And I make a gag and then I move on to the next card, and I'm not going, oh, this is a special card that means magic will happen in a minute, and this one, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

It it's just you're not doing the running commentary to say you can examine this one, but not this one.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

Yeah, yeah. Two of three. When I first showed you it in the shop, now bearing in mind you had heard about it, you didn't know the method, um, and you hadn't seen the trick. Now I remember Yeah, I remember you and Lee were in the shop. I showed it to Lee first. He didn't have a clue, and then I showed it to you, and once again, you said to me, I I've got no clue. Now, you did pick up after a minute or so.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

A little bit after that though, but I was still wondering, even though you showed me the method, I was still wondering where the fifth card was. Yeah, it didn't, it didn't all line to find register, and then it's like, oh, of course, of course that happens. Um, yeah, it it it's it's great, but yeah, none of those guys, it wasn't even a possibility of a thought of there might be something dodgy going on with the cards. Yeah, it was there was no I need to check those cards out. There was cards that's the result.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

That's the difference. That's why part of me hates putting videos up because you never you don't experience it. Watching the video, you don't experience it. You're you're just watching a video, you're watching a video of a trick being done. When it's being done on you, you experience it. The the feeling you get from it is different. You're never gonna get that feeling from watching a video of that that moment of astonishment or wow. You know, as a magician, we'll watch something, even if it fools us, we you won't get that feeling than you will get if something's done on you, and then you go, but I'm right here, I've seen it, they're in my hands. This has happened, that's happened. And it it's really hard to sort of get that. You can't get that across on video, you're never gonna get that across on video.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

You know, um as I was saying before about the test and the hero. I've performed test and hero like hundreds of times, and not obviously you're not totally clean at the end, but the way you present it and sort of drop everything there, and I've moved back like that. No one's ever can have a look at that card or can have a look at that card. It's just about your routine in because you've made everything so fair all the way along, yeah, and things like that. Nobody ever well, it might do one day, but nobody has ever sort of touched anything at the end. I've literally like, and I make a point of just standing back. I said, you know, you could have chosen doing one of these, and I've told the other superheroes to go and save the planet, things like that, and they're just sort of more of a jaw opening sort of what's gone on here, sort of, you know, it's just the way it's presented, and and again I've charged up because it's in the spectators' hands as well. That's that's a feeling like I've got I've got five cards in my hand now, yeah. And then when you can sort of take them off and go that one, that one, that one, and that one, it's just like that's it. They don't need they're not thinking, Do I need to touch the card? You presented it in a way that's not a challenge, you you've made it magical, really.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

And what they're thinking, it this is this is gonna say yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

I'll just very quickly I was just gonna say, um, you know, I mean, and they know as well, I'm a huge fan of Bankable by Nel Porter and Roddy McGee. And again, not once have I done that, and I and I look I put them down into their hands and I go, Oh, you chose this one high five, boom, and if you chose these ones 50-50-50, not once have I ever had anyone um reach forward to open the envelopes to look inside them. You you they don't they they they can see what they can see, they can see there's no notes in them, they're all notes, they're all banknotes, and they're and and they don't need to be examined, they they can see with their own eyes. Now they don't know the secret, so they don't know that's what they're looking at, but it's it's you know, and and not once do I go, oh, would you like to check the other envelopes? You don't need to do that. You're you're you're you're putting yourself into a situation. So I I'm I'm doing a bit of a book on audience management, and and the first chapter of it says a lot of magicians in their heads get this idea and they create problems that aren't problems at all. And reading the comments about the void, oh, that looks really unnatural, really amplifies that for me that these people are making up problems in their head that actually don't exist.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

Well, this is this is standard typical magician skill all the time, it it really is. Um, and and the thing is, you know, as a little as a little tip, whenever I'm doing an effect like charged up or whatever else, you've got to either routine it in such a way, and charged up is automatically like that. When that card vanishes, they don't care about these, it's the other card they're interested in. That's the thing. And do you know what? It doesn't matter how good a performer you are. You look at someone like Darren Brown, right? Derren Brown, who is probably our best showman in the UK at the moment, probably one of the best in the world, um, packs out theatres everywhere. When he puts on a new show, he will he will basically run it for a few weeks. It will probably take four weeks for that show to to be pretty much how yeah, how he wants it and worked in.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Um and it's just and even then it's left out, it's funny.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you think of um David Copperfield, David Copperfield has been what a professional performer for 50 years or whatever it is, he's been at the NGM Gram for 20 or 25 years doing two shows a night, two shows a night, every night. Um I heard and I believe it, he still records every single show and he still watches it back. Every single show. You know, because there's always something you look back and you go, oh we'll we'll tweak that. Or what if I said this? Or what if we put a gag in there? Or what if you're gonna do that?

SPEAKER_03 39:46

For me, it's what I wish I could do because of you know, if I could have a I thought about one of those fortuity necklaces, this little triangle necklace you wear, and it records all the audio while you're working, etc., for keeping notes in meetings, and I thought that'd be great to look listen back to and hear all the ad libs and all the gags that the quips that you come up with on the spot and then just instantly forget. But I could listen back and go, oh, that's when I can keep in the show for something else.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

But it is it's it's a very um it's a very interesting it's a very interesting topic, like the the examinable thing. And because there were any comments on there you can read out.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Is there anything that people have said that uh um yeah? I mean there's quite a few. I'd I'd like to hear some justification for why they thought not not one way or another. I'm not I'm not trying to be argumentative with anybody, but I'd like to hear your justification for why you feel the way you feel. I think it'd be really useful.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

You've got I I think it's pretty much what we said. So we got Steedman 99 said 75%. I'm only doing tricks in a social setting, so people feel more comfortable asking to see the props. Um and which I agree with, and I totally understand that. You know, I I think I was very lucky because when I grew up, my siblings and my mum and everything else, they just love magic. So they never asked me to see anything, and it's not them being polite or anything else, they're just not that way, they're not wired that way, they just enjoy it for what it is. But I totally get, and I said that earlier, if you're performing to friends and family, there isn't that sort of barrier there, is there, or that boundary or anything else. Um and remember, if you are if you are going out and performing, you are in or you should be in charge. Yeah, you should be in charge and you should be in control. Um, but I totally understand what um what he said. So let me have a look. So Bob, Bob Bob Dilworth said uh maybe 10%. Surely most adult audiences know there's no such thing as real magic, and there's always a method. Do you know what? It that's that's a good topic because I think I agree with you, but then I don't think they know there's a method. Even though they know magic don't exist, a lot of people still have got no clue how any of this happens. And and us as magicians, I say I I was on a podcast yesterday, and for me, my biggest regret about being a magician is that I very, very rarely experience the magic anymore. If someone shows me a trick. Because as magicians, we have knowledge, and that knowledge now gets rid of you think of the simplest trick you do, um, and then imagine when you first saw it compared to when you see it now.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

I think I'm quite lucky in that aspect because and and and this goes to my jokes as well a lot. But you know, when I'm on stage and I've I've heard my jokes a billion times, but I still laugh at the jokes because I think they're funny. Yeah, people say to me, When I was in Spain, I would do like five shows a night, so I was doing twenty five shows a week, and people go to me, What what you know, people who who would see my shows multiple times, like people who worked in the hotels and the insane, and they go, Why are you still laughing at that joke? And I'm like, Because I think it's funny, because I think it's a funny gag. it's got a place in the show there or um and and it and it and it works for me you know and and i still i still love i mean magic is my job it has been for for nearly 40 years and and it is my hobby but it's it's you know it is still magical for me i love to watch people show me tricks and even if i know how they're done i still enjoy it for what it is makes it way yeah yeah no i enjoy it for what it is but i think it's like when you can speak another language so because i can understand italian when people speak in italian in my head it's english it it's just automatically english and I think because we have that knowledge when we're watching magic it's sort of translated in our head or at least it is in mine and I'm not saying I don't enjoy it I do and it's something I'm not trying to do it's just translated I can't turn I understand that I wasn't saying that you don't enjoy it but yeah no I understand it because I understand it it's hard because you know if if you see someone say I've got one two three four cards as a magician we know what they've got yeah do you know what I mean and and it's not that we're trying to know we just know you can't un unknow it you know um and that's what I'm saying for me that's my biggest regret of of being a magician is I don't experience it as much as as I would like to um and I'm not saying I don't get fooled that's you know I'm not saying that at all because I remember months and months ago um Martin was sitting here and he did probably one of the simplest card to wallets I've ever seen and was number one on Liberty for about two months that was yeah and it fooled me badly like literally I just missed it. I whatever it was I missed it and and uh you know to be fair your presentation of it was so casual that nothing flagged there there was nothing you manipulate you called Jamie out the back and you said show Jamie and he had no idea either when I showed you both it's like being light bulb moment like really don't get fought by that yeah and it it was but do you know what once again the method is sound but the way you presented it was the power to that trick that's the thing you know and and this is the thing with a lot of that and at no point during that trick did I go let me have a look at that not once did it come into my mind in the comment you got on the screen that's exactly what Paul's saying there's it's down to I'd say performance and personality personality I think plays a big part in it Paul's Paul's personality is is very in charge dominant as well he's he's in control of everything um as am I as are you I think I a lot a lot of the examination things and people I think comes down to experience I think comes down to profit you know and and I'm not saying there's anything wrong yeah and there's nothing wrong with just performing for your friends and family at all it's you know I I'm I'm a big advocate for it doesn't matter what level you are as long as you're performing for somebody then then you know it's not just about the secrets you should even if it's just to your dog you know if if if you're performing the tricks in a in your in that mindset to your kids to your dog to your grandparents to a care home to your friends to your family or you're out gigging and working it that's all that matters it's about what we do is performance art and we should be performing then that is your hardest test I think it's harder to do for your family than to other people because they've got a peck in order you know like there's always an alpha male in your family when you're going out to a group everyone's on the same level as such but uh when you've got a family like things like that that is a harder level than it is out in the real world it may sound like that's not true but obviously it is true.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

So the family test in my opinion is definitely one of the harder ones.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

My mum was always very very strict with me. She would watch any trick I wanted to show her but she would be critical and not just to be critical but she'd say to me that was really good but you I did see something there not appear in the room. And it's just to make me better she did it not in a way to degrade me or or disrespect it was more I saw that and if I see it somebody else is going to see it so you need to make that better and and she did that all the time and it was if I could get it past my mum and I could show my mum and not have her give any feedback then I knew it was ready to perform for the public. I'm talking about you know I'm not talking about now I'm talking about like you know last week and we record no I was talking about when I was like 13 and 14.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Yeah you know it it's really it's really interesting and you know I agree with you Martin I think family some families like I said mine I I've been very lucky because all my family my sisters might maybe my brother in laws not so much they're a bit more inquisitive but the fact is the more confident you get you know you can handle that situation so it's it's not a problem but and and you're right it is I think a lot of it families are are harder to to perform to because they know you and they know their boundary with you chances are there is literally no boundary with you at all so they can say what they want do what they want it really doesn't matter so anyone that's out there that is just performing to friends and family you know you you've got a hard job it is a hard job um but it's also it's also a good training ground to to perform because the you're obviously comfortable performing to these people so this is the best time now to start performing and taking control of the situation you know and and learning those sort of comebacks or whatever if someone wants to examine um but I I'm a true believer that you don't get things examined unless they ask. And you know there was a video I saw of Craig and it was a trailer to a trick and I can't for the life of me remember what trick it may actually be charged up. And there's one moment where they've put something in his hand it might be charged up I'm gonna rewatch the trailer but the girl sort of just goes to reach for them to to take them back for whatever reason but Craig just the hand sort of dips and Craig sort of asks her something and then they're they're just off in a conversation you know it's yeah it it's you you just sort of manoeuvre it's a little bit I have a I have a moment I have a moment right where I make a gag and I know I've got a couple of gags that I use quite a lot in my shows and I know that if I do the right gag or the right or a lad lib one I know that the spectators will look at each other they'll go and then I could do whatever I need to do. Yeah um and I've just seen your comment Robin it's just come up here Robin what you've done now do you know what it once again Robin's Robin's right sometimes you need someone to sort of say oh I I saw that um because that's how that's how you improve the the other big tip as well when you're working on a a routine and I've said this a hundred times we've all got phones now and we can all film ourselves and if ever I'm working on a a new routine especially something that involves palms or slights or whatever I'll set up a camera I'll record myself performing it to an imaginary spectator.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

So you said this about when you show me stuff you don't just show me the trick you perform it to me over the camera.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

You know you've never during lockdown that you would you would never show me tricks you would perform them to me even we've been talking about oh we've got this insight right so I want you to imagine and then you're into the routine you perform it as if you are performing it which I've always said is a great way of you doing it a hundred a hundred percent because if you film yourself doing it so if you're performing if this is a trick and you imagine yourself standing at a table you've got a spectator each side perform it as if you have got a spectator each side now watch it back because you'll be able to see okay when I'm speaking to this spectator I'm doing a move now that's a really bad angle for her so I need to do that move when I'm speaking to this spectator and you can really break it down and see what you're doing how you're doing it when you're doing it and how to improve it and the reason I used to perform stuff to to Wayne over internet like lockdown we were speaking pretty much all day every day every day on on video and I'd go oh Wayne let me show you something and I'd perform it because the pattern the timing the movements are part of what makes the effect deceptive and you would you know if you saw something you would go I don't like that or that bit and I'd go why why don't you like it well I don't like it because it just seems odd you done this bit and now you're doing that bit so that's when we'd sit down and go well all right well how do we get rid of that bit how do we cover that bit how do we do this bit it when the other the other thing like that as well as I was going to say was um during during the uh when we were getting into Magic there were no video cameras on or nothing we could afford anyway.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

So it was always like look practicing in front of a mirror but that doesn't really help you having a video gets you a proper image of what you're doing. So I know a lot of people are thinking oh that's great but you're Peter Nardi and you've got a camera set up but like you say we've all got phones and it doesn't matter if you just started Magic last week or you've been doing it for for 90 years if you get a camera yourself and you film it you can watch it back you can see it as it's seen from the spectators and it's it's it's a great practice and rehearsal tool.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

The um I I went back in the day I did have one of those close up mirrors I I okay the three the three yeah and I never used it I never used them I'll tell you for why because I was just staring at the mirror all the time I'm looking at the mirror do you know what I mean so I'm not doing the nice thing about filming yourself and that's why I say literally and when I'm practicing and filming myself if you watched it back you'd think I'm mad because I'm actually calling these imaginary people by their name I'm making conversation with them because that's how I can see my timing that's how I can see what's going on and someone sent me a video once of a stand up show I did and the show went great it it was it there was nothing wrong with it but I cringed so many times when I watched it but it's stupid things like why did I turn my back on the audience? Why did I walk over here when I should have stayed here why did I do this when I should have done that and they're all things that while you're sitting there watching it makes no difference to you but for me I'm watching it going I shouldn't have done that because you know there was a table behind me. Instead of walking round the back of the table I turn my back on the audience to get something off the table and little things like that to most people won't mean anything but when you watch it back and you go yeah shouldn't have done that I I watched a video of me show when I was younger and I actually had someone ask me if I was Italian because when I when I perform I gesture a lot with my hands I'm I'm very gest you know animated animated with my hands.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Yeah and I said no no no I'm not because apparently Italian people do that a lot. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I once read in a body language book if if you're having an argument with an Italian person take hold of their hands and pull them down gently and they'll stop talking because they can't talk without moving their hands. Because generally in a book if you if you do that they will calm them down and you could talk to them or get your argument across. And and I put it down to the fact that growing up with my little brother who's deaf and signing all the time where we like this and we are animated in signing now when I'm performing not so much closer but on stage I am very like okay so what we're gonna do now is we're gonna get the blah blah blah and and you know it's but I didn't I never realised that without looking at it on a on a video on the same mind I'm totally animated about trying to just sort of frame yourself into it don't leave anything behind I'll enjoy it.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

But talking of family uh O'Hara our daughter's doing magic now and she'll be trying to see us this weekend we're at Sydenham Fair this weekend so I'll be doing a bit in the show and O'Hara will be doing a bit in the show as well so uh that's fantastic in Oxford and she loves it as well so uh talking about being critical I watch her and I love watching her perform I can't help but say just do this just do that and I just try and hold back the table not say anything but I'm just gonna quickly add as well because a lot of people have asked myself this uh but O'Hara is one of the only two magicians who is booked to perform at my wedding yeah so she'll be performing at my wedding she's just turned 13 for those that don't know her but yeah she's a teenager well she's a teenager going on 29 she gets right there's um there's a comment just come in I'm not gonna put it on the screen because it won't all go on there but it's from Paul Martin so if anyone doesn't know Paul he's uh he's a friend of mine but he's probably one of the busiest working magicians in the UK um you also mine I think it's it's he he said I switched my ring flight recently as his uh bonsil one broke I used my old reel with a key fob the one we all used to use you know they're hanging on the keys in the fob and that so um I haven't been holding on to it on my belt loop like before I saw a video the other day from a wedding planner and you can quite see me uh quite quite clearly see me go into my pocket um lesson learnt I've changed the prop or if you change the prop, change your performance and that's it that's the thing you know because Paul's been using a specific type of ring flight he built his routine round it he then went to a a an older ring flight that he used to do use the same routine for this one but it don't work because even though it's pretty much the same effect his movement and his cover has to be different you know but you don't really understand it until you see it and then you see it and you go wow that needs to be covered I mean that's that hits the nail on the head same yeah pretty much same prop pretty much same effect but it's a different routine and choreography choreography yeah you know and and I know I know for a fact I've seen Paul perform and you know like most of us if you go to your A set you do it without thinking everything flows and everything's there. So he's obviously done his standard routine which works 100% but because it's a new prop the choreography needs to change you know it's a really good point.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

It's good to see Paul on here it'd be good to get him on here one week to have a chat with us as well I'm a big fan of Paul's I'm a big um Paul Paul is up the road for me he he moved into a uh into a windmill a couple of years ago and um yeah yeah I'm a big fan I'm a big fan of Paul's and I think he's uh you know like you say one of the not only one of the busiest working people in the performers in magic in the UK but he also really knows his stuff he's got a lot of knowledge and a lot of information and yeah he's very much uh a fountain of performer yeah well I saw a video of him once it was really funny he was um um for his compare course yeah and uh it was before he released it and I said to him I said I absolutely loved watching this and it was he was comparing a show and as he walked out he had a couple of dancing girls in front and behind him and he's in the middle and he's proper giving it and he's dancing along and he's got his signature smile and he and you could just see it on the camera and he gets to the front and these girls turn and they go off either side and he's on the microphone and then the camera pans and all the audience is up dancing as well and it was sort of like oh my god that's amazing you talk about making an entrance no matter what he did after that he has got control of that room no matter what he does he can tell the shittiest joke pardon me the bird that's the that's that thing there's bang he could he could tell the worst joke in the world and it would get a great laugh because the thing is for anyone that don't know for anyone that don't know um Paul Martin's also got the uh what's the course uh it's the um mc course the mc course course yeah if anyone is seriously thinking about going pro they want some coaching check it out because um there's a lot of valuable valuable information in there um it's a very good course and it's worth checking out paul has actually said he'll he'll be happy to come on anytime I I will add to that I'm actually on that course and I've been a compare for years and worked in Spain in the hotels as a compare and and and and being an entertainer on the ships etc you know I've done compaying for years and um I signed up for the course just after lockdown ended and I found it so informative and so full of some of the bits I already knew but it was very interesting to see how Paul structured it all together. That's it the Pro Magic Academy. I didn't know that Paul I I tell you what was um yeah we've been excellent Harry Harry joined it after BGT um and straight away from Paul's advice and everything else his fees went up and and that was it so he got his money back in a couple of gigs.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Did you get a percentage beta?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

No nothing so Paul not only does the um the the MC also has a I think a close up course as well and yeah you'll learn you'll learn a lot paul Paul really has a great knowledge and understanding of um yeah he is a game changer uh and and like I said I knew I knew a lot of the MCing stuff because I I've been working it but seeing how he put it together and structured it properly helped me and improved my business.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

And this is uh maximise your time at the wedding as well so you're not just doing the magic you can actually do other bits at the wedding as well and charge more for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

Yeah yeah yeah it's really good um guys this has been a lot of fun but I think our time is up but before we go I do want to say we're back tonight at 7 pm with the launch of this Get Saucy. We're gonna be on YouTube and Facebook right here. I will send out a push notification to let you know we're going live so if you haven't done so already download the Alexam app off uh the App Store or Google Play Store and then turn on notifications and you'll get a little push notification just press it it will bring you straight to the video when we're live um so get saucy tonight seven o'clock right here um right so gentlemen and ladies are both ladies still there or has Tracy Tracy left at 10 to 2 she had to go back to work but Robin T hold on let me just turn it around thunder and lightning Robin we've got a massive thunder and lightning storm happening here so um yeah it's it's all kicking off outside um yeah because I said that bad word and it's tired at that moment I can't believe that it's your fault yeah that was terrible Wayne terrible right that's it we're already 10 minutes over but uh Wayne Martin and Robin thank you so much for joining us on this uh podcast we will be back tonight at seven o'clock for the live launch Thursday for the Academy and next Tuesday oh yeah next Tuesday we are here as well we're doing a live podcast next Tuesday and we will have another question for you and I won't be in the pub I'll be at home but I'm not I've got risk I've got some JD at home so I might go there so guys thank you so much for joining us and uh we will see you next week and see you later guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

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